Biography
• Birth—November 21, 1970
• Where—Washington, D.C., USA
• Education— B.A., Brown University; M.F.A., University of
Montana
• Awards—Brownbrokers Drama Award, 1990 and 1991;
Cohen Award for Best Short Story, Ploughshares, 1997;
San Francisco Library Laureate, 2003
• Currently—San Francisco, California
Born in Washington, D.C., Andrew Sean Greer studied creative writing at Brown University (where he delivered the Commencement speech at his own graduation ceremony!) and received his M.F.A. in 1996 from the University of Montana. After grad school, he moved to the West Coast, living for a while in Seattle before finally settling in San Francisco. His work began to appear in literary magazines, and in 2000 he released How It Was for Me, an anthology of short stories the New York Times Book Review called an “impressive first collection.” One year later, his debut novel The Path of Minor Planets was published to much acclaim.
However, it was his second novel, 2004′s The Confessions of Max Tivoli, that proved to be Greer’s big breakthrough. The title character of this bittersweet love story is a freak of nature: Born a baby with the appearance of a 70-year-old man, Max proceeds to live his entire life in reverse, ending up a wise old man trapped in the body of a helpless child. In a glowing New Yorker review, literary legend John Updike proclaimed the novel “…enchanting, in the perfumed, dandified style of disenchantment brought to grandeur by Proust and Nabokov.” It was named a year-end best book by the San Francisco Chronicle, Chicago Tribune, and the Miami Herald.
In addition to his novels, Greer continues to publish short fiction, reviews, and criticism. His work has appeared in Esquire, Paris Review, The New Yorker, and the New York Times.
THE ISLANDERS
by Andrew Sean Greer The New Yorker May 17 2004
Later in their travels, of course, they will not go out in rain like this. A heavy, silencing kind of rain, a hand over the sky’s mouth, a car door shut upon a hostage. They will be patient travellers by then; they will sit comfortably in Victorian tea shops and watch the soaked pedestrians running by, or they will shop for sheets or sweaters or anything else that they desire. But to take a day off at the very start of a trip, to tear up plans; that is impossible to do. It would be like spending a honeymoon apart.
So they are out in the rain, driving past what the guidebook calls a “Bronze Age fort.” Low hills rise behind them, shaded down to gray by the rain, and to their left lies a loop of stones and the sea. The sea is nothing but a blind spot in the downpour. They are in Ireland.
Maddy is reading the guidebook as they pass the fort. She is nearly forty, a small, kind woman on vacation with her oldest friend; she is a linguistics professor at a college in California and is used to being in charge of things, of people. But she is not in charge here; her friend Cat is driving. They hit a rock and Maddy flinches. They ford a stream and she reads aloud from her book as if it were something she knew: “ ‘There has never been a bridge on this spot.’ ”
“Jesus Christ, where did you find that guidebook?” Cat says, laughing, driving with a wild flair.
Cat is a year older than Maddy, a New Yorker in a black trenchcoat, thick black-framed glasses, and short blond hair; by now, she has managed to erase all signs of her poor Midwestern childhood. She has done well importing sunglasses from China, a business that she herself finds ridiculous. She is nearly six feet tall. The trenchcoat, magnificently striped inside, came out of a giant leather bag that is, to Maddy, a source of endless wonders. From it, Cat produced, on the plane, homeopathic travel remedies and blow-up pillows. Just last night: an enormous orange scarf (now worn as a sash). In a few weeks, of course, like any assistant travelling with a magic show, Maddy will learn the tricks and limits of the bag. But today her old friend can still astound her.
“There has never been a bridge on this spot,” Cat repeats. “What kind of guidebook would mention what isn’t there?”
“The woman at the store recommended it.” There is a whir of irritation inside Maddy, like the rising summer sound of insects. This trip is a kind of reunion, a sudden, special trip after years of living far apart, and perhaps, unlike when they were young, the old friends aren’t quite used to each other. Jokes that fall flat. Cat’s shifting tempers. Maddy’s sudden silences.
“Note this field,” Cat suggests. “It is not a battlefield of any kind.”
Her coarse laughter is too loud for the car, and Maddy is not in the mood. She looks back at her flawed guidebook. She has read as far as the chapter on the Blasket Islands. A few chapters later, there is a bit on the Tinkers, the mysterious group of people who travel around Ireland pulling small scams, or sometimes committing bloodier crimes: luring tourists to be mugged or beaten or worse. But she has not reached that section yet.
It was Cat who first told her about the Blaskets; she had learned about them years ago and became obsessed with them. Maddy fears that they are also a flimsy motive for this trip, which has no obvious purpose except that Cat called early one morning from New York, forgetting the time difference in California, as ever, to announce that she was taking Maddy to Ireland. Not Maddy and her husband, Jason; just Maddy. “Why Ireland?” Maddy asked, half asleep, trying not to wake Jason, who looked so angry as he slept, as if burning off his doubt at night so that in the morning he could be a husband to her; Maddy was unaware that simply by asking this she was already on her way to Ireland, already drawn into Cat’s plans.
“Well, who doesn’t want to go to Ireland?” she answered.
As always, any version of the world other than her own was unthinkable. Maddy remembers it now, that persistent, childish trait of hers. Full of stubborn joy.
All Cat seems to know for sure about the Blaskets is that they are a cluster of small, green, hilly islands just a few miles off the Dingle Peninsula—with its rising shroud of mist—where villagers with ancient ways lived until recently. She believes that they were pagan Celts who worshipped fertility gods; Maddy tells her she has got this idea from the film “The Wicker Man,” and that the guidebook doesn’t mention anything. Cat crossly says that she is nonetheless “really into them,” and, moments later, here they are: the Blasket Islands, humpbacked mounds scattered with rocks and furred with grass. A long way off across a choppy sea. Some small white specks are visible: the abandoned houses of the islanders. A ghost town off the shore of Ireland.
“Now, that’s worth coming for. That’s worth coming all this way,” Cat says, stopping the car and rolling down the window. A mizzle of rain and sea air comes in. She chuckles, and adds, “Hey, Maddy. On this spot, no one ever died from love.”
To Cat’s obvious delight, there is a sign pointing them through long, rustling grass to something called the Blasket Center. It’s unbelievable; after days of seeing small stone or half-timber houses, nothing could be less Irish than what rises before them: a great glass-and-wood structure, like a Scandinavian hotel, set out on a cliff with a direct view of the lost islands. Someone has planned parking for dozens, though there are only a few cars in the lots, and no buses. There is something patient, hopeful in the sound of the waving grass now that the rain is ending. Somewhere off to the left, Cat and Maddy hear the radio static of the sea.
The men behind the ticket counter are young and handsome. When asked, though, they claim not to have any Blasket blood. “Did I insult them?” Cat whispers as she and Maddy make their way down an echoing gallery. At the far end, they can see a framed and glorious view of the Blaskets; side arches hint at additional galleries, exhibits, but there is no trace of other visitors. They have been informed that the restaurant’s special today is Thai Fish Cakes—rather a surprise—and that the video presentation has already begun. But only just; they can make it if they scurry. That is the word the handsome men use: “scurry.” The sound of Cat’s and Maddy’s running feet echoes up to the skylights.
The Audio-Visual Theatre smells of new upholstery and glue; as their eyes adjust to the darkness, Cat and Maddy can see seating for more than a hundred. But they are utterly alone; the video presentation has begun in an empty room. Perhaps a computer is in charge. With the whispered chatter of adolescents, they take seats near the rear and Cat brings out a package of something from her magic bag. “What are these?” Maddy asks, but she cannot hear Cat’s response, so as an act of faith she takes some.
They seem to have missed some crucial piece of information, because for a little while the video is confusing. An old man pokes through a leaf pile with a stick while an even older voice reads stilted poetry about a sinner; also, it takes some time for Cat and Maddy to get used to the accents. Eventually, some blotchy black-and-white footage shows Blasket Islanders (or “Blasketeers,” as Cat has begun to call them) moving in that jerky, silent-movie way around their houses, herding sheep, blinking suspiciously at the cameraman. There are some thirty kinds of flowers on the islands, and several kinds of butterflies. Maddy decides that what she is eating is Raisinets. Elegant violin music plays during intercuts of birds and the sea; a voice tells them that people were sighted on the islands in the nineteenth century. The video shows a priest arriving by boat to read Mass; they were not pagans, after all.
In the darkness, Cat whispers, “I’m sort of not into them anymore.”
Back to the black-and-white; maybe a dozen men at a prayer service. It seems that they ran out of women, and the men grew too old, and the very youngest fled to the mainland for some other kind of life. In 1953, the remaining Blasketeers had to be evacuated by the Irish government. There is footage of this also: humiliated old men being boated over to the mainland, to a world utterly foreign to them—in fact, to the very spot where Cat and Maddy are sitting. The old man with the stick turns out to be the son of one of these men, living in Springfield, Massachusetts. Apparently, there is a whole Blasket community in Springfield. Unceremoniously, the video presentation ends; perhaps the computer has decided to stop things early.
Out in the bright gallery again, the two women are dumbfounded. “That’s it?” Cat whispers, staring at the photographs of the last Blasketeers. “That’s it? A whole museum about these pathetic people?” Something metallic is rising in her voice.
“And Thai fish cakes, too,” Maddy adds.
“No wonder nobody’s here!” Cat says. Maddy recognizes the tone; it’s laughter—a new kind, pleased and ruthless. “I mean, they present it like it’s the Holocaust, all that violin music and poetry and sad people. But they were only there for, like, eighty years. And let’s face it: they had to be evacuated because they simply couldn’t hack it!”
Cat’s face is wide open with joy; Maddy is drawn in at last, just as when they were young. Maddy imitates the video, the slightly American brogue of the narrator: “Let us consider the mystery of the Blasket Islanders. Why were they so dumb?”
Cat joins in: “Was it the sheep? The bad poetry?”
“Was it the butterflies?”
Down at the other end of the gallery, the attendants stare with their pale faces, concerned by the echoing laughter. At this end, as in an old portrait, the Great Blasket Island itself sits framed behind glass: solemn, its green hills buxom, its head veiled by a private rain.
There were times in Maddy’s youth when she wondered if she was unlovable. It was a stupid, indulgent thought, a furtive hate she saved for hot May afternoons when she lay alone in bed. There, too, lay the vague, halfhearted thought of suicide. At twenty-two, no man had ever loved her; none had ever seemed to care about her for very long; her last boyfriend had ended things after two months, without ever having slept with her. When she asked why, he had answered (with that cruel plainness that comes with innocence, with youth), “I wasn’t sure I was attracted to you.” Wasn’t sure. He had been waiting for two months to be sure, had looked at her from all sides, and had found his answer at last: No.
To remember that phrase of his, to repeat it in her head—“I wasn’t sure . . .”—what a satisfying agony. Maddy used to bring it out in her worst moments, like a miser with a precious jewel.
It turned out, of course, that she had merely had a run of bad luck. Any older person could have told her this. She was not worthless, or chemically depressed; that awful doubt disappeared by her late twenties, when the kinds of men she’d dated before—rich, dull, and sexy, always girl-watching with drinks in their hands—held no appeal for her at all. Instead, she found grinning, eager men who acted as if she were the cause of all their joy, kind and loyal men like Jason; men who could not keep their hands off her, who missed her when she was gone. She forgot all about that unlovable girl.
But back then, in the bad times, Cat had been her great ally. Cat, whom she had met at Brown, in a playwriting class, where they were assigned as partners. They began to spend all their time together, working on a play that began, according to Cat’s vision, with a dozen women at a costume ball who all come dressed as Scarlett O’Hara. Cat was an inconsistent girl, often calling Maddy to persuade her to come to the movies, but snapping in irritation if Maddy tried to invade her own solitude. She taught Maddy to sing in Portuguese, to shoplift mascara, to play a drinking game called Spoons; Maddy told Cat the secrets of her love life, her ambitions, and she gave to Cat her smiling patience, her fascination, and her fierce devotion. For two years after college, they shared a West Village apartment. There Maddy confided her fears while Cat sat smoking beneath a Blondie poster. “That’s stupid” was all she said, then stubbed out her cigarette. Cat, who had no man, no history of love. Who could have met or trumped Maddy’s woes with a lonely full house of her own, as any other female friend would have, arguing over who was uglier, less loved. Instead, Cat said what she believed to be true. That it was stupid. That Maddy was intensely lovable. Cat loved her, after all, and it was inconceivable to her that anyone would not share her opinion. On films, books, people. It irritated her to think otherwise.
“That’s stupid. Pass me the lighter.”
Had she meant to save Maddy’s life?
They visit another miserable church shaped like an upturned boat, an ogham stone in a mystically deserted cemetery, a saint’s house, and then stop for lunch at a dark café that must have changed hands recently, since the owner seems flustered by everything on the menu and finally, smiling, offers only beef stew. The view is of cows and low stone walls and blurred water. Maddy is starved, but Cat is in some kind of trance, and proceeds to relate the entire plot of a science-fiction book she had just finished and didn’t really like. She tells the story while holding a spoonful of stew three inches from her mouth, but she is so involved in the telling that she keeps bringing the spoon close to her lips, and then taking it away as she remembers some new twist of the plot; this lasts for almost forty minutes before she finally takes a bite. Maddy is fascinated and slightly annoyed by this oddity. Cat, unaware, buys a rhubarb pie for the road.
Out of the Dingle Peninsula, over Connor Pass, and the view is spectacular; it is the fourteen shades of green the guidebook promises. The road gets narrower, rockier, but Cat, still driving, does not seem to mind. Their destination is Ballyvaughan and the guesthouse of Mrs. Moore. Cat made these arrangements and now reveals that Mrs. Moore offers massage and aromatherapy in the room. She imagines Mrs. Moore to be a local witch and a nudist; she makes this joke almost to herself, staring out at the view. The rain is over, at least for now; the sun is out. A cold stream flows down from the rocks and across the road. Below, on the bay, the water is as blue as a glass eye. Every field is alive with grass. It is unbearably beautiful.
Maddy awakens to very similar surroundings under a more hostile sky. She is surprised to find herself alone, the car stopped; it is parked in a gravel lot across from a moss-hided castle. The sky beyond it shows no sun at all anymore. As she sits up, she hears a voice; it’s Cat, in a nearby phone booth.
“No,” Cat says bitterly into the phone. Through the rain-beaded glass, Maddy can see her friend’s face, her lips curled in some kind of disgust. She is clutching the orange scarf in her free hand. “No, we got lost. We got delayed.” Another long pause, and Cat says firmly, “We will make it, Mrs. Moore.”
Maddy looks at the dashboard clock; two hours have passed. Something has changed. The barometer inside her senses it; she can feel it through the door of the car, through the phone-booth enclosure. She braces herself. Something has changed in Cat; something has happened.
Cat hangs up the phone and stares at it for a moment. She looks bright and cold and lonely. Then she turns to Maddy, who has rolled down the window.
“Hi there,” Maddy says, feigning drowsiness. “Where are we?”
Cat says nothing. Maddy has pretended to herself that this is a natural, easygoing question, but of course it isn’t. She knows very well that they are lost. So it is a needling question; it blames.
But she cannot help herself: “I guess we’re lost.”
“You were asleep,” Cat says suddenly, accusingly. Her hair has curled in the rain and parted, showing dark roots that Maddy has never noticed before.
“You should have woken me up. I’m good with maps.”
“I’m sure you are.”
A slight shift in subject: “That was Mrs. Moore?”
“Yes, it was. I took care of it.”
Maddy cannot resist another dig: “You want me to drive?”
Cat gives her a sour glance; she looks like a person on the edge of hatred. Maddy recognizes this look from their youth, tries and fails to remember what she used to do with it. “I’m going over there,” Cat says to her, and where she points a little store has magically appeared. “I’ll be back.”
While Maddy was asleep, Cat must have followed some Irish will-o’-the-wisp—a sign for an abbey, a grotto, a mermaid’s lair—and gone off on an adventure that led nowhere, merely stranded them here beside this castle; she must be embarrassed, frustrated, jealous of Maddy’s selfish sleep. Maddy could understand this and be kind, but for some reason she is not willing. She is too tired of it. It’s not my job to make her happy, she thinks. She gets out and shuts the door; the air is rainless, absolutely neutral. She leans back against the car, closes her eyes, enjoying the last waves of sleep as they leave her, briefly imagining the friendship fading.
She thinks of Jason and the ease with which she moves with him; he never does this, is never so childish as to escalate a minor moment. At the very worst, he has to step out of the room and when she follows him he tells her to stay away, to give him a minute; sometimes he locks himself in the bathroom. When he emerges, one hand spread out on his chest as if he were pledging an oath, he is always contrite: “You were talking too fast; I can’t keep up, but I’ve thought it through and I want you to be happy.” His loyalty to her happiness is sublime, unending; it would take a bolt of madness to undo him. He never looks as if he hates her. She never thinks she is going to lose him.
Someone touches her arm; she starts.
Not Cat, but some chubby blond woman with a bad perm, holding a baby. She is dressed in a long shirt of faded flowers, slacks, and sandals whose clear plastic has dulled from dust. Her soft face is fixed and immobile, concentrated. She is as bland as butter. Maddy takes a step away. The woman approaches again and asks in a stern voice, “Miss, do you know how far to Dunquin?” She is Irish.
Maddy wishes she knew the answer; she loves being an expert. She considers it, looks around at the gashes of stone walls among the hills. But of course she does not know where she is. “I’m sorry, I’m not from here.”
“You see, we’ve run out of petrol, miss, and I’ve got my child.” On second glance, it is not quite a baby. Maybe two years old, but small and dirty, staring everywhere but at Maddy. A cold wind has begun to blow in from the sea, and it smells like leaves, like living things.
“That’s a shame, maybe at that store—”
“Could you help me with our map?” the woman asks. Her expression is still focussed on Maddy, as intense and plain as ever. “It’s back at the car.”
There is a murmur like a mosquito in the back of Maddy’s mind. But perhaps she does know; it’s Cat who got them lost, after all. Maddy has always been good with a map. “Of course. I’m a tourist, though.” Well, surely the woman would have guessed that.
As she follows the woman into the car park, she notices a little monument by the side of the road. A sculpture of a woman among the waves. “The Colleen Bawn,” a sign reads. “A fabled maid tricked into marriage and drowned.” Well, Maddy thinks, if there were a monument to every one of those . . .
“We’re so low on petrol, you see,” the woman says. She has skin as pale and thick as bond paper; smoker’s skin, Maddy thinks.
“And we’ve got no money of our own.” A toneless, monotonous voice; nothing pleading or sad in it.
They’re at the car now, some make of car that Maddy has never heard of, small and rusted, a decade old or more. Her instinct tells her to walk away; she stifles it. There are clothes heaped in the back of the car, and a McDonald’s bag. It looks as if the woman and her child live in there. But where did they find a McDonald’s?
“I don’t see a map,” Maddy says. The wind picks up; it is pulling at her hair, and she raises a hand to stop it.
“It’s in there, under my coat,” the woman says, hoisting the child onto her other hip with a slight wince to her eyes. The child stares out at the castle; Maddy notices—strange how the mind works so constantly, uselessly—that the castle is for sale. She pulls herself back to the car, watching, sensing that she should be watching. With one free hand, the woman opens the driver’s-side door.
Maddy looks into the car, where a red Windbreaker lies crumpled on the passenger seat. So red. A murmur of warning.
She begins to turn away, toward some bushes rustling in the wind, but the woman points, directing her attention back to the car: “We’re just worried about petrol. So we can eat.”
“I can’t give you any money,” Maddy finds herself saying. It takes everything she has to say it.
“I just need help with the map,” the woman says, clearly affronted.
“I don’t mean—”
The woman gestures toward the car. “Miss, if you could get the map for me, just climb in there for me—”
Maddy looks into the filthy car, the open door. The wind has stopped, yet she still hears the bushes rustling. “Perhaps I—”
The woman says, “Just in there.”
“It’s not that I—”
“All right, then, take her for me.” The woman lifts up the child, and Maddy knows this is wrong, for though she cannot possibly see the man’s shadow moving in the bushes, she knows at once it is a trick. If she takes the child she will be burdened, helpless, vulnerable.
For the first time, the child—a girl, apparently—looks straight at Maddy with an expression of blank appraisal. As if she had seen her type before: These overeducated women who now live in California and cannot tell anyone, not even their husbands, how much they miss New York, because in New York everything might change at any moment—you could have an affair, or bump into an old friend, or lose your life. These women who talk about breeds of dogs, varietals of wine, faucets and tile and hardwood floors. These women who come to Ireland because it is neither obvious nor unexpected, neither strange nor familiar; it is like everything else they choose; it is their life; it is probably what they expect of death.
The woman holds the child out to Maddy; the child reaches out her hands to be held. And there is nothing Maddy can do but lift her own hands to accept her. Nothing she can do but this. No way to untie this knot, no way to change things, not even if she hears the boot scraping on gravel, or notices, in the sun’s brief reappearance, the glint in the bushes that anyone would know is a knife.
But from somewhere beyond the shock of weeds it comes: the piercing call of a whistle.
Years from now, Maddy’s life will need saving again. She will be old; Jason will be old. She will be sitting in the waiting room of the hospital while the nurses ready her husband to see her. It will be early in the morning, the nurses having called to tell her that he has awoken from his short coma—just a few terrifying days—the result of an unexpected, devastating virus. It is common for coma patients to have very little recall; for instance, he will not remember anyone named Maddy. But he will have been told that she is his wife, and that she is arriving today. A nurse in clogs will come out and whisper that she can see him now. In Maddy’s hands: flowers, bright-red dahlias, perhaps to jolt something, to be so bright and sudden that his brain will come alive with love. She will walk into his room, a pale-green sunlit room, to find him sitting up stiffly in bed, his gray hair combed oddly across his forehead, his faithful smile aimed at the nurse. “Mr. Dean, your wife is here.” He will look over, and she will see it in his eyes. “Hello,” he’ll say. “Hello, and you’re my wife?”
But she will know what he is thinking. There must be some mistake, his eyes will say to her. I don’t think I would marry a woman like you.
It will take a visit to Cat in New York, a week of drinks and dinners and long talks in Cat’s darkened living room, to survive it. But it will be Cat who saves her, as always. Cat, old herself, round and grumpy in a large apartment filled with Caribbean art, her white hair done up in a kerchief, still stubborn in her belief that Maddy should be cherished, a belief that does not come from mere loyalty. She will be pompous, moody, and worn out by solitude. She will change the subject; she will say, “Remember in Ireland? When we were lost? I was so mad at you, you were always so impossible. Remember how I saved your life? I was out at the store and I bought those green whistles; I came out and the car was empty. But then I saw you, with that man coming up, and I blew my whistle. And you came running to me. Remember?”
“I do.”
“Oh, and remember! ‘The mystery of the Blaskets. Why were they so dumb?’ ” The unexpected summoning of a decades-old voice: “And on this spot no one ever died from love.” Sharp, familiar laughter.
But what Maddy will recall is the wet, smoky scent of the air that day, the cigarette butts in the gravel, the red Windbreaker. The child’s eyes, the waiting shadow inside the bushes. The spell-breaking sound of Cat’s awful whistle and how it took the bottom out of everything, let it all spill out onto the ground, and how somehow Maddy was running, pushing through the wet weeds to find her friend waiting, blowing on her whistle with a child’s concentration, the trenchcoat spattered with mud, the orange scarf wrapped around her head. Strange to know, to name your protector. Her face as she glances Maddy’s way, and that one eyebrow lifted like a fermata, like the very sign of love.
A few weeks ago, he took some time to sit down with Haighteration over a few beers at Noc Noc to discuss the new book, as well as faulty memories, famous Parisian neighbors, and the thing he thinks the Lower Haight needs most.
*************
Andrew Sean Greer: I will say I appreciate the new [renovated front area of Noc Noc]. It works for me. It’s just as weird as before.
Haighteration: It is not less weird. Is this your favorite bar in the neighborhood?
ASG: Yeah. It’s gotta be. I was here on a Friday or Saturday once, and I thought, “Oh, this crowd is not for me.” … I like it when it’s the couch-surfing crowd that shows up here. That’s always fun, and you never know when that’s going to happen. You know, you just show up on a Wednesday with your friends, and there’s a hundred Germans and Swedes with nametags who are eager to talk to you.
H: How do they show up here? Why this place?
ASG: Because the owner’s son is really into couchsurfing, and he just decided they should have a party here, for all the couchsurfers in San Francisco. And once a month they do.
H: What else do you like around here?
ASG: Because of your article, I went into Two Jacks, and she was so lovely. Nothing is as San Francisco as a chalkboard menu. Should I have the fried oyster sandwich? Probably not, but I wanted to. Also, it’s the closest business to me.
[At this point, we discuss a couple of Lower Haight eateries we could do without -- strictly off the record.]
ASG: What would you open up? My answer is always a cheap grilled teriyaki bowl restaurant. None of this shit teriyaki that they serve in Japanese restaurants. Give me some grilled chicken, vegetables, rice, teriyaki sauce, $5.95. Bullet train shit everywhere, anime, nonsense. Like really, really, really tacky. With an awesome DJ. It would make a fortune.
H: You work in the Mission somewhere, right?
ASG: Yes, 16th and Mission.
H: Why there?
ASG: When I was looking for a new office like two years ago, I had a price point, and I found three places. And I needed something right away. I found a houseboat on Mission Bay that had a broken hot tub on the top. I found a room in a Victorian in Hayes Valley, next to people who were doing a video project, overlooking a garden. And I found a really shitty, shitty windowless space at 16th and Mission. And I chose that one because it was walking distance, and totally private and isolated. It’s got two couches and an upstairs, and it’s super crappy. The Victorian would have been the right choice, but I would have heard [the neighbors], and I need silence. And the houseboat wasn’t close enough.
H: Do you go to the office every day? Are you disciplined about that?
ASG: Yeah. Every day. And it works, because there’s no internet, it doesn’t get cell phone reception, I can’t text or anything. It means that there’s nothing else i can do but writing, so I get it done.
H: You just got back from Paris. What were you doing there?
ASG: A San Francisco theater company called Word for Word put on a production of a short story I wrote. (I’m saying this so that I don’t say “my play,” because I didn’t write a play.) Every year they tour a play in France for a month. So this year they got funding to bring the author along with them. So they flew me out … They kept me very separate though. They all stayed in an apartment together and had meals every night, and I stayed in a very glamorous apartment in the 6th Arrondissement and they were in like the 14th Arrondissement.
H: So you were kind of VIP.
ASG: Yeah, they VIP-ed me. But you know what, I paid for part of the apartment. They were like, “We can’t really afford it, but do you want to use it?” It was really glamorous. It’s downstairs from David Sedaris.
H: Does he live there?
ASG: Yeah, he lives there in Paris. His doorbell was right above mine.
H: Did you say hi?
ASG: NO! No. No. That would be inappropriate. But I did see him at an Amy Tan reading at the embassy in Paris. I was too shy… I thought it would happen at the embassy, and then he snuck away. Because I thought, “I have such a great intro to this.”
H: Not at all creepy.
ASG: Right! “Hi, just so you know, I’m staying downstairs. So if there’s too much noise… there’s nothing you can do about it.”
On Research:
H: You are clearly a history guy. I’ve read a couple of your books, and what strikes me is how detailed the specifics of the time periods are. I’m curious about how you research those details. I’m thinking of Max Tivoli especially. Very, very detailed.
ASG: You have no idea how much I cut out.
H: Really?
ASG: And I should have cut out a lot more. I did so much research because I didn’t know what I was doing, and I really felt insecure about it. So I went to Berkeley, and they have a library there, the Bancroft Library, where you get boxes of people’s stuff, and I did primary research. Tons and tons of it. I didn’t know what I was doing at all. I put so much of it in that book. And I cut, maybe, 150 pages.
H: Holy shit.
ASG: It was my editor’s instinct and input. And I learned this in Story of a Marriage, which is that, you’re a better liar if you give just one piece of information than if you give, like, ten. Because, you know, if your boyfriend is like, “Where were you last night? You came in really late,” and you’re like, “I was out with Josh,” that’s better than “Josh met me at 10, and then at 10:30 it was really confusing because this guy showed up, and…” It starts to sound weird. Why are you giving me so much information? You sound like a liar.
And if you’re actually speaking from the time period, you wouldn’t think it was weird. You would just mention a few things as throwaways. So I actually should have cut a lot more. And in Story of a Marriage I should have cut a lot more, but I just couldn’t bear to lose some things that I found. But in Story of a Marriage, I read the newspaper. Advertisements. That’s what I did for this book too, I read the newspaper.
H: So you just finished your new book?
ASG: I did. Well, “finished” is so… relative. I finished a draft in January. And now I’m writing a second draft. And then I have to try to sell it.
H: I’m curious about the schedule of those milestones. How long does it take you to do the second draft?
ASG: With this one, I’ll be done in June. So I’ll go to New York, or I’ll spend June getting feedback from people, and figuring out how to plan my attack.
H: When is the book set? And where?
ASG: It’s in New York, not San Francisco.
H: [Outrage] Tell me someone at least moved to New York from San Francisco. Some connection…
ASG: I know, everybody’s kind of mad about that. No, there’s no San Francisco in it at all! I know. It’s set in 1918, 1941, and 1985, and I had kind of already covered those first two periods [in previous books] in San Francisco, and I was not interested in doing it again.
H: Do you know New York well?
ASG: Well I lived there for a year. The New York Public Library gave me a grant to do research exactly for this book. Actually I wrote it first in San Francisco, and then I got the grant, and set it in New York.
H: You wrote the whole thing in San Francisco, and then…
ASG: No, like 100 pages, which I threw away.
H: It’s that easy just to transfer everything to New York?
ASG: I just start over. It was easier somehow. But I look at it, and I don’t think there’s that much research in it, but I’m sure when it comes out people will talk about how researched it is. I think I’m very bad at it. But maybe I’m good at making it seem like I know a lot more than I do.
H: I have a specific question about Woodward’s Gardens [an amusement park featured in Max Tivoli]. Was that a real place?
ASG: Oh yeah. It’s right where Woodward’s Garden is. It’s that restaurant. It was exactly there, and it crossed Division Street. So it was an entire city block on one side and an entire city block on the other…
H: And it was some sort of park…
ASG: Yeah it was exactly! I have to say, when you do research about Victorian San Francisco, Woodward’s Gardens is the first thing that comes up. Because it’s the main memory for people who had their childhood in the 1870s. And so when people started doing interviews with people about San Francisco starting in the 1930s, everyone remembered — they were 60, right? Or 70? — they remembered Woodward’s Gardens. Because this man, he owned all this property, Woodward, and he decided to make it into this pleasure ground. It’s not our idea of a good time, probably, because it was like, stuffed flamingos among bushes, you know. It was weird. Dromedary rides. Hot air balloons.
H: All of [those details in the book] were real?
ASG: All of that was real. And they killed a bear — that was taken directly out of the newspaper.
I got something wrong though. Because I was reading the literal newspaper, and there was a crease in it. It said “They shot him in the rear.” And I got a note from a guy saying no one would ever shoot a bear in the rear, because it would spoil the meat. And I was like, “What do you know? It’s written in the paper.” And then I looked at it again, and I was like, “Oh. ‘EAR.’ Of course, that would kill a bear. Not the rear.” Oh well.
H: Do you get a lot of letters like that?
ASG: When a book first comes out, I get a lot of stuff. The Max Tivolibook I got a lot. It’s really weird. A lot of people want to stake some kind of claim. I think they want to be writers themselves, and so they will often come up to you and correct you on a minor point as a way of showing they’re equal to you. And I now accept that. I understand it.
H: Can you give an example?
ASG: Like someone might come up to me and say, “I read your book, I thought it was great, but you know, you made a mistake. I heard you reading, and you said her name was Alice Levy [pronounced like 'levee'], and in the West we pronounce it ‘lee-vee’.” And I say, “Thank you very much.” And now we’re equals. Instead of being an audience member or a reader, she’s helping me out. It’s strange. But I think it’s very human. It’s also how you’re supposed to pick up people in a bar. You’re supposed to insult them a little bit. Just to show that you’re in control.
H: So they’re flirting with you a little bit.
ASG: They are flirting with me a little bit. It’s almost like they want to have a conversation as equals. Not a fawning fan conversation. So they want to be clear that they know what they’re talking about… You would never do that to someone you thought was an equal. You would only do it to, like, a famous person, to try to connect with them, to get to them. To catch them off their guard.
H: Is celebrity something you deal with a lot?
ASG: No. Are you kidding me? No. No, no, no. … I always feel like I’m a hanger-on. [My husband] David feels this way too. It’s actually amazing the cool people we get to meet, but I’m not the celebrity. I have lots of friends who I think of as famous, but also no one would recognize them on the street, so they’re not in that way. Which is fine. I’d like their money, but I don’t need that weird thing. People then need something from them, whatever that weird thing is that people need from celebrities. What you need is like… their wisdom. A celebrity writer – you think they know something. When really, they know less than their book says. They edit their book to make it seem — it’s better than they are. That’s the thing about art: it’s better than [the artists] are.
H: Are you maybe selling yourself short?
ASG: No, I’m selling my friends short! [Laughs] They’re lovely people but they’re not all particularly wise. But their books are incredibly wise. And people wonder, “How do they know so much about life?” And the answer is, because they’ve thought about it for ten minutes, about that sentence, so it sounds good.
H: Do you think if everyone devoted their time to thinking about these things, they could come up with that same material?
ASG: [Laughs] No, I don’t.
On Memory:
ASG: For Story of a Marriage, I interviewed a woman who was in her 80s and lived in the Sunset. And I talked to her, and she was really lovely. Armenian. But also, interviewing her, I understood that her memory was no worse than ours, but… wrong.
H: How so?
ASG: Specifically, she read my notebook for errors. I was so grateful. And she said that a part of the book that talks about there being icemen and milkmen and an egg lady who had a cart and vegetable men, and guys who would sharpen your knives, and she said, “Oh no no, that was the ’30s, that wasn’t the ’50s.” She was wrong about that.
H: How do you know she was wrong?
ASG: Because it was in the newspaper. And it was very interesting for me, because it meant that what she meant was that it was typicalof the ’30s, and it was gone by the late-’50s. It was sort of in its last gasp in the ’50s. So it’s not an accurate portrayal of that time period. My point in writing it was that the era was switching into a new era, and that it was this old way of doing things. So I realized that I couldn’t trust what she said. [Laughs] Because her memory compartmentalized everything. I mean, you tell somebody you’re writing about the 1950s, and they think, “Oh, poodle skirts and Elvis.” And actually, no, that’s 1962. Anyway, I dealt with that a lot. So I stopped interviewing people. I go to the primary sources. Because if I ask people, like, “When did milk delivery stop in San Francisco,” they say the 1940s. I say, no, 1981. Why does nobody remember through the 1970s getting milk delivered? Because it tapered off. I mean, now there’s milk delivery again, because it’s super yuppie, but…
H: So you’re very diligent about verifying details like that.
ASG: It was very nice for me the other day when this play thing was going on in San Francisco, and this woman came up to me and said, “I lived in San Francisco in 1953, in the Sunset, and I have to tell you, that everything was exactly as you described it.”
H: Do you feel like with this new book you’ll face that same problem?
ASG: I don’t know, that’s not my biggest problem with this book. I’ll worry about that later. [Laughs] It’s also not my city, and New Yorkers are sort of weird. They don’t care about history the way we do. They have no memory. You know, a place will have been around for 70 years, and they’ll have a big sign that says, “We’re closing! Help donate!” And nobody will donate, because they’re like, “Alright, something new!” You know, CBGB’s going down in the East Village, I was like, David Bowie can’t step in and buy CBGB? Nope. No one. Patti Smith? Nope? Nobody. And, there it goes. It’s a John Varvatos store now.
H: Why do you think that’s the case in New York moreso than here?
ASG: Because there’s enough. If they lose something, there’s something else. Whereas here, if we lost– say, if The Warfield or The Fillmore were going to be turned into a mall, people would go nuts. Because we don’t have as much.
H: Let’s talk about the new book. Can you tell me about the plot? Does it have a title?
ASG: The title is called “Many Worlds,” and it’s about a woman who undergoes electroshock therapy and then finds herself traveling between three different versions of her life, one in which she’s living in 1918, one in which she’s living in 1941, and one in 1985. So she gets to see how her life would have been different if she had been born in different times.
H: Where did that idea come from?
ASG: I was reading a description of a Michael Cunningham novel, and I got it wrong — I thought that was what the novel was about, and then it wasn’t. So I remembered it. And I was intrigued by the idea of how the time in which we’re born would change who we are. That we’re not necessarily a solid person — or maybe some people are. Some people would be the same. But I think most people would be whatever the time allowed them to be. Especially for women. Although oddly, maybe [1918 would have been] better. It was a pretty liberated moment for women in the West Village in 1918.
H: All three eras are set in New York?
ASG: Yep, same exact place. West Village.
H: It seems to be a theme for you, how people relate to the historical time that they’re in.
ASG: Yeah, yeah, I guess I keep thinking about that. Especially for women, I often think about my grandmothers, or even my mother. You just think, “God, if only they’d been born 30 years later, it would have been so much easier for them.”
H: Do you feel that way about yourself at all? Do you think you were born in an easy time?
ASG: Well I do think — when I tell people about this book, I used to tell people it’s a time-travel novel. Which it’s not. And they will say, like, “What time would you like to be born? What would be your favorite time to live in?” And I’d be like, “I don’t know, what time would you like to be a gay man? Medieval England? Ancient Egypt?” I mean, I don’t know. Maybe in the future? I know I’m not born at the best time to be gay, still, but it’s so much better. So I’m like, “I’m sorry, there’s no good time for me at all.” You could say for gay men, you know, around 1918 was not terrible. 1918 in Paris, you’d be fine. You could have a life. And in Berlin. But then, come 1930, things are not so great in Berlin. So…
H: Was it a conscious choice to have a female protagonist in your new book?
ASG: I actually tried writing it as a male, this book. The plot kind of involves tangled romantic situations, and it just seemed shitty, because he had a mistress, and a wife, and he just seemed like an asshole. But oddly, when I reversed the genders, and it was a woman who had a lover and a husband, it seemed totally fine. [Laughs] I don’t know why.
H: Do you find it hard to write in the voice of a woman?
ASG: The job as a fiction writer is to try to get your mind into someone who is not you. That’s the job as I see it. But I also think the job is not to write as all women, or something terrible like that, but to write as the particular character. Which would be the same thing if it was a guy. To write as specific as that character as you can, and be honest about it, and then you’ll be fine.
H: Are you doing pretty drastic changes to it in the second draft?
ASG: Yeah. It’s all structural though. It’s always structural, that’s how it goes. The problem isn’t what happens, it’s all pacing. Pacing, pacing, pacing, pacing, pacing. Moving things around. “Oh, maybe this backstory belongs to someone else.” And the hardest part for me is always the beginning. I work so hard on those beginnings because when I start writing it, I don’t know what I’m doing. So I have to go back and make it seem confident, when it wasn’t when I started it. To fake confidence is a very hard thing to do. That is what I have to do. We’ll see how it goes.
H: Do you feel good about how it’s turning out?
ASG: Yeah. I have no idea if anyone wants to read this thing, but I think I am making what’s in my head. Which is the best I can do.
H: So you’re going to hopefully finish the second draft in June, and then start the process of selling it…
ASG: Sell it, and then I’ll get an editor, and then I’ll edit it. I guess it would come out like a year from now. I mean, if I sell it at all. I have no idea.
H: Are you being humble, or do you really worry about selling it?
ASG: I’m sure I’ll sell it. It’s just that the industry is very bad right now. And so, it’s doing what most industries do, which is that, it will bet everything on one book, and give nothing to the other books in its catalogue… And so you have to find a publisher who swears that you’re the one in that catalogue. And it’s awful. Because even if you get that promise, you know that there’s four other books they probably promised it to and that aren’t going to get it. It’s terrible. It means that the best case scenario is, I would suck up all the marketing money from some publishing house, and no one else would get it. And it doesn’t promise you success. But I have to get that promise. Because otherwise it’s not worth it. More than getting money for myself is the promise that they’re behind it.
H: Can you do anything to convince them of that beyond just the material itself being strong? Do you have to build any buzz for it yourself?
ASG: Well, I went off Twitter for a while. And then I went back on, because I felt, I don’t know, there seem to be people listening, and I want to amuse them while I’m still writing the book, and then maybe they’ll be interested when it comes out. And there are some writers who have done that, who have a Twitter persona that’s really attractive. They have fans who have never read their books. That may not be me.
I think the main thing is that you want to sell [publishers] on the fact that they’re buying into your career. And that they don’t just want this book but they want you as a writer. I seem pretty old to a musician or a visual artist, but I’m really young as a novelist. So, you know, they can count on 30 years of work. That’s what you want to persuade them, that you’re going to keep writing at a certain level.
H: I would think that, given that you’ve already produced well-received books, it’s strange to me that it would still be hard at this stage, and that you’d still have to go through that process of convincing people to take the chance.
ASG: For me, it’s a big moment. It’s a big book for me. I have to make my mark in some way. It’s time for me to make my mark.
H: You feel like your previous books haven’t done that?
ASG: They did, but I need to keep doing it at that level. I can’t slip below that. Fifty is your peak, when you’re a novelist. So I can’t become a midlist writer at the moment. I have to keep building up to fifty, in my head. [Laughs] And then, you know, I can slip down. But you know, I’m supposed to write a masterpiece at fifty. So they should keep getting better and better.
H: That is a real motivating factor for you?
ASG: Yeah. I don’t want it to be “good enough.” Also, because no one is reading books, you can’t just write a thing.
For me, I can’t just write a thing. It has to be worth people’s time. Because almost no one I know reads much. But when they get a good book in their hands, they’re really grateful.
So, I would like to write that book.
*************
Thanks to Andrew Sean Greer for spending some time with us. You can find him on Twitter at @agreer, and find his novels at The Booksmith in the Upper Haight, or at fine bookstores throughout the city and interwebs. We’ll keep tabs on Greer’s progress, and will be certain to let you know when “Many Worlds” hits the shelves!
Extras
Excerpts from a 2004 interview with Barnes & Noble:
• I [have] an identical twin. His name is Michael Greer and he’s also a fiction writer, and though our styles are very different, we love reading each other’s work. We used to live a block apart in San Francisco, but he went to grad school in New York and now lives in Brooklyn, so if you think you’ve seen me on the streets of New York, it’s probably not me, but say hi anyway. We’re both very used to being greeted by strangers who think we’re someone else.
• Some early jobs I had while trying to survive as a writer: reservationist at a fancy restaurant, chauffeur for a woman who couldn’t drive because of a double mastectomy, sound and lighting Technician for experimental theater in New York, acting extra on Saturday Night Live, game tester for Nintendo, attendant to a woman recovering from plastic surgery, and so on. Although every writer must have a day job, I vowed at least to make mine interesting so I’d have something to write about. One of my weirdest jobs—touring New England private schools with a Vietnamese boy and pretending to be his English tutor—made it into the first story of my collection, How It Was for Me.
• I like dogs and burritos. I dislike direct sunlight and cantaloupes.
• When asked what book most influenced his career as a writer, here is his answer:
My initial response is Nabokov’s Lolita, because it is a constant revelation to me. But the most influential book has to be one that I haven’t read since I was 16: Wuthering Heights. Strange, I know. Let me explain:
Before I begin any novel, I find I’m highly sensitive, and there’s always one book I read that opens up some way into the novel. For my first novel, The Path of Minor Planets, that book was The Hours. I realized that Nabokov was right; there is no such thing as plot. There is only style and structure, and Michael Cunningham’s amazing prose and perfect structure make for a fantastic book. For The Confessions of Max Tivoli, that book was The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay by Michael Chabon. One of the pleasures of that book is the obvious delight the author takes in his subject; that was a great lesson for me, and allowed me to throw myself into the prose and details of 19th-century San Francisco.
But I wrote my first novel back when I was 16, after reading Wuthering Heights. For some reason, I was amazed by the looping storytelling, and the passion and beauty of the language. I wrote a horrible, horrible novel in imitation of it, but I have chosen Emily Brontë’s novel because it was in the thrall of that book that I began my career as a writer.
http://www.haighteration.com/2011/06/meet-lower-haighter-and-best-selling-author-andrew-sean-greer.html
he Rumpus Interview with Andrew Sean Greer

“I’ve heard other novelists say this, which makes me feel like I’m not crazy, that the problem with every novel is finding the key to it, finding the way in.”
Andrew Sean Greer is the author of three novels and one collection of short stories. He is a New York Public Library Cullman Center Fellow, and is currently working on his fourth novel, which is allegedly about time travel. His latest book, The Story of a Marriage, has appeared on many lists as of late, including Washington Post Best Books of 2008, San Francisco Chronicle Best Books of 2008 and The Financial Times Best Books of 2008.
Greer first exploded onto the proverbial literary scene with his 2004 best-selling novel, The Confessions of Max Tivoli, which chronicles the life of a man who ages backwards (not to be confused with the mediocre yet wildly popular film adaptation of the F. Scott Fitzgerald short story, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, which nearly caused Greer to have panic attack.) Max Tivoli got a rave reviewfrom John Updike (RIP) in the New Yorker.
From regulating the passage of time through the tracking of a comet in his debut novel, The Path of Minor Planets, to documenting 19th century San Francisco through the eyes of an anomaly in Max Tivoli, to negotiating the painful politics of race, love, marriage and war in The Story of a Marriage, Greer always manages to ground his imaginative and sometimes fantastical stories in real emotional power and careful language. He usually lives in the Bay Area but currently resides in the West Village, where this San Francisco-to-New York transplant managed to track him down for a chat.
RUMPUS: So, you’re living in New York? How long have you been here?
GREER: I’ve been here since September 7, and it’s January so…that’s four months? Wow, it’s been a long time. I love it! It’s exciting, and, just in terms of literary life you run into people you would never normally run into. Like, last night we went to dinner and there was Salmon Rushdie. That’s just kind of amazing to me.
RUMPUS: What are your favorite things to do in New York when you’re not working?
GREER: I get really trapped in the village. It’s a lot of walking around. I’ve only been to central park once. I mostly go to the bookstores and go to thrift stores.
RUMPUS: So, right now you are working at the New York Public Library as a Cullman fellow. The terms of the fellowship state that each recipient has to be reliant on the library’s stacks. Can you tell me about what you are working on now and what kind of research you are doing?
GREER: The great irony at the library right now is that there’s lead poisoning in the stacks, so we’re not allowed to take any books out! So, I can’t believe that we’d have to be reliant on the stacks because they’re not accessible.
RUMPUS: Are people disappointed?
GREER: For some people it actually took them awhile to catch on because they weren’t really using those stacks. There are also all these other smaller libraries in there that haven’t been affected. For me, the historical and genealogical library is the one I use. I’m working on, I’ll say, it’s a time travel novel. I haven’t written very much of it. That’s the dirty secret of the Cullman center: The writers don’t write their fiction there, they just do their research.
RUMPUS: You aren’t originally from San Francisco yet so much of your work takes place there.
GREER: Are you originally from San Francisco?
RUMPUS: Yeah
GREER: Oh, you are so lucky!
RUMPUS: I know, I am really lucky. I just went back a couple weeks ago after a year and I forgot how beautiful it is.
GREER: I had gone to San Francisco when I was 20, one summer when I was in college, and always knew I would go back there. For fiction writing, and for Max Tivoli, setting the book in 19th century San Francisco made it work in a way that’s hard to explain. It was very easy to find characters that I wanted to use, easy to find settings and costumes, it just made it easier. The Story of a Marriage is also in San Francisco. I tried to put it in Kentucky because it’s based on a story about my grandmother in Kentucky. But I couldn’t do it there.
RUMPUS: And in The Path of Minor Planets, not a lot of it is set in Northern California, but some of it is and it always kind of comes back there.
GREER: You read that?! Nobody read that book. Yeah, I guess he does have an apartment in San Francisco…
RUMPUS: Yeah, right at the end and that’s one of the best parts of the whole book, when his character finally finds himself happy in San Francisco.
GREER: Well, for that one I had just moved to San Francisco. It’s just such a malleable landscape. People go there to reinvent themselves and, God, what is a novel about except that? If you are choosing Massachusetts you are choosing people in a strict society that won’t let them move. But San Francisco has this Western landscape of solitude and beauty, and also the intense urban experience too.
RUMPUS: In The Story of a Marriage, how did you make the decision to write in the voice of an African American woman, and how did you approach this challenge?
GREER: Oh my god. I mean, I’ve heard other novelists say this, which makes me feel like I’m not crazy, that the problem with every novel is finding the key to it, finding the way in. I spend the first year just turning it over and over and writing pages and pages, and throwing them away, just to find my way into the book.
For The Story of a Marriage, I tried it lots of different ways, from different points of view, and it came down to first person, San Francisco, retrospective, wistful. But in a lot of ways it still wasn’t working. In the beginning, I had a white woman. But then, I thought wow, it’s really annoying to hear her complain. I mean, she has it hard in the 50s, but at the same time she has so many options, why wouldn’t she leave? I just don’t get it! Also I felt like I was being cowardly. That’s the feeling I get before I make some crazy move. That I was being cowardly, and I wasn’t really addressing, in 1953, the real issue. And then I thought, oh God! Please! I don’t have to do this, do I? No, I don’t! But for me, the book became so much more interesting to write when I realized that here was a white man coming to buy a black man. It doesn’t feel very romantic. It feels more complicated. It’s made a lot of people really mad. The book was very controversial in the UK of all places. It was the most controversial book of the year among the blogs. I think because they are having an argument in Europe in general about the novel, and how natural or artificial it should be, and the book came across to some people as very artificial and manipulative.
RUMPUS: How did you arrive at the decision to reveal such a major secret at the beginning of the story? I mean it propels the plot because the rest of the book relies on those details, but when I read it, I was like woah! This is something crazy to put at the very beginning.
GREER: It happened by accident. It was a surprise to me, but then I realized, and you do this when you write a book, is you write a lot more than needs to be there, and then you look for everything that repeats. And it’s in that repeat in things that you see the theme unfold, which is not something you can decide beforehand. It’s different from what you thought you were writing about, and you just have to go that way, and not the way you planned. For me, it was a book about assuming things about others around you, and about ambiguity, and about the solitude of our lives and the invention, the way we almost completely invent the people around us.
RUMPUS: Max Tivoli received so much critical acclaim and attention, did you feel anxious about releasing this one, just knowing that people would take notice? Especially since you were taking a risk writing in a voice so different from your own?
GREER: The thing I was more afraid of was that it would be ignored. The thing I was really afraid of is that Max Tivoliwould be the book that people would notice and that would really be it for me. Then the great thing happened, which is that John Updike reviewed Story of a Marriage in the New Yorker, and he hated it! Hooray! It was good news. It made me cry, I was sad. But, to be taken that seriously again was such a shock and an honor. I realized that people hadn’t forgotten about me. You never know when you put your book out how other people are going to read it. You can’t even talk about your book until it’s out because you don’t even really know what you’ve done, it’s the weirdest thing.
RUMPUS: So, all of your books have a historical element to them.
GREER: I really didn’t expect that to happen. I am a terrible researcher. And I’m not a history buff. I think it’s like renting a furnished apartment versus an unfurnished one. It’s all done for you, but it’s not quite to your taste. You have to replace some items and paint some of the walls, but it’s just so much easier. When you set something in history it comes with its own sets and costumes, and own characters already.
RUMPUS: What is your research process like? I mean, you said you aren’t a good researcher but you can write a book about comets and then Max Tivoli, there must be something to it.
GREER: Actually, I think you fake it. The trick to it is to put in as little as possible of what you research, as little as you can possibly stand because the less you put the more it looks like you know. It looks like the tip of the iceberg. But if you put in everything, then they know that’s all you know.
So, in every book I remove so much detail. You can’t believe what I’ve had to remove from my books! The Story of a Marriage to me doesn’t have any research in it at all but, really, you can’t believe what didn’t go in there. I had huge binders of newspaper clippings that I got.
RUMPUS: Is that how you got a feel for the time period? Through looking at old newspapers?
GREER: That’s it. Yeah. I couldn’t figure out another way to do it so I just read the newspaper in 1953, through almost the whole year, every day.
RUMPUS: A lot of your fiction is fantastical. But the characters and the intensity of all of their emotions are very real, and very relatable. To what extent is your work grounded in your own experiences?
GREER: None of it is autobiographical to me at all, not even in a hidden way, which seems to be the only way I can work it out. You know, the way in your dreams you work it out and it doesn’t seem like it’s you at all. With novels, you are in the realm of metaphor, and that’s the part I love. For Max Tivoli, I sat and I thought about the first boyfriend I ever had, and about that feeling of intense love and passion. I thought about that every single day. For The Story of the Marriage, I wasn’t married at the time, but I thought a lot about other people’s marriages, the people I knew.
RUMPUS: You mentioned that The Story of a Marriage was based on a story that your grandmother told you.
GREER: My grandmother told me a story about a young man who took her aside one day and said, I’ve been your husband’s lover since the war and I want to leave with him. This is in rural Kentucky in the 1950s. But I don’t know anything more than that. She said no, and sent him away. He was a schoolteacher in town, but that’s all. My dad would be furious when I talked about it. Everyone believed that she was a crazy person and that it couldn’t possibly be true. She never left him, they stayed married the whole time and they never talked about it, which is why in The Story of a Marriage they don’t talk about it. A lot of people ask why she doesn’t confront him. And I tell them, for me that’s how it was. My grandmother was a chatty woman but she didn’t chat about that. It was too dangerous, somehow, for her. After he died she’d tell it to anybody who’d listen. She said her only regret in life was that she hadn’t slept with more men.
RUMPUS: On the topic of love, “We think we know the ones we love,” is the opening line of The Story of a Marriage, and “We are each the love of someone’s life,” in the case of Max Tivoli. Both refer to one person loving another, but don’t suggest that love is something that necessarily exists between two people. I was wondering about your feelings towards love and the institution of marriage.
GREER: Oh dear God! I’ll give an easy answer first. What I think I’m doing is just making conflict and resolving it in ways that aren’t entirely sentimental. I want to create emotion that is intent and strong, but not cheese ball and there’s a fine line. I think a lot about compromise and how much I really dislike it as time goes on. It’s almost an untenable institution, and yet I’m married and very happy so, we’ll see what happens, But I’m very curious how people work it out. Sometimes they don’t, but sometimes they do and there is some other reward, some different kind of love than the new, young, passionate love.
I remember talking about this with a high-school group, they had read Max Tivoli. One of them had a question was about the difference between young love and adult love, and how could people settle for the kind of love that seemed to exist in marriage in my book instead of this intense passion that Max has? I said, I can’t describe it to you, but it is longer lasting. Intense passionate stuff isn’t sustainable.
A lot of people think of Max Tivoli as a romantic book but I think he’s a very destructive character, and I think that kind of love is very selfish and thoughtless and hurtful and exciting and thrilling and what life is all about. All of those things at the same time. I’m in conflict I guess.
RUMPUS: Ok, this is my last question. What is your editing process like? You say that you write so much and you throw a lot of it away, and that sometimes you’ll try an angle and it doesn’t work and scrap it. Once you find a way into your novel, what’s it like after that?
GREER: Well once I do that, I write three pages a day and I get to a certain point where I do look back on it. Usually the novel reaches a certain breaking point, where the plan doesn’t work anymore and you have to give it up and it feels like it’s a crisis in the book. And it’s great for the book but terrible for the writer. But I don’t show it to anybody until I have a complete first draft. And I don’t talk about it with people, I tell them misleading things about it, like that it’s a time travel novel…because I don’t want anyone’s input. Not because I’m a GENIUS, but I just don’t think you should say anything to a novelist except to keep going, because they don’t know what they are doing so you can’t know what they are doing. They are really just finding their way in the dark.
http://therumpus.net/2009/02/the-rumpus-interview-with-andrew-sean-greer/